Armour

[Valitrix]

Ok, I already ran this by Forte, and she likes the idea. She just wants to know what you guys think first. So, who likes the idea of having Armour available to buy at the shop? I think it would be sold in pieces, like a mask, breast plate, etc. Any thoughts?

[ivyandtheghost]

I like this idea a lot.
Then, then we could buy owl characters, and buy them masks, and call them Guardians!
Lolno.
But really, I'd have to make a wolf with a half-melted mask and nickname him Metal Beak if we did this. o3o
Anyway, this is a smart idea.

[Accalia]

I like this idea. Though you'd have to watch out for godmoding in fights. Nobody should have tons and tons of armour so that no other wolf can possibly touch them. Maybe take into account the weight limit... like, the more armour you have, the more slowly your wolf will move, as a rule?

I don't know how a wolf would acquire armour. I mean, maybe somebody with the right metal/fire powers could do it, but would they? After all, armour's heavy. They'd have to cart it around when not wearing it, and hide it somewhere dry (so it won't rust) while they hunt. You couldn't really hunt wearing armour. Being stealthy in armour is kinda hard. It clanks, and the sun reflects off it, and it's harder to move smoothly wearing it.

And how would they get it on/off? Straps would be hard to tie/buckle using paws.

I like the idea, though, if somebody can make it work.

And if we get this, then Lyta needs paw-gauntlets. And then I need to draw a menacing picture of her paws with the awesome gauntlets and her massive claws.

[KaiNaium]

Accalia brings up some good points. Narra, being the Cercaethor for Aurora-Caeli, would probably arrange a general armour-keeping crevice, cave, or etc. for wolves' armour when not in battle. As for the creation of the armour, I'm not entirely sure. Obviously there aren't many fire-metal talented wolves in Spectrum as of late. Therefore, wolf armour would be hard to come by and make it seem more rare and expensive. Members with characters that have fire-metal powers may be able to sell their armour in-game, perhaps? They would do so sparingly, of course. The armour would need to be personalized to the wolf's size and build and would take, I suppose, a rather long period of time to gather the correct materials and actually perform the process. There are a bunch of complications, obviously, but if it's wanted I say we just find a way around them.

[Forte]

That gave me an idea. If Narra would be interested in having an armory, Lyta could help another wolf, one with earth powers, to make the armor, and that could be the one and only place to get it.

I've read up on smelting a bit to make sure this would actually be possible without some really technical scientific magic. Very basically, ore is extracted from the earth and heated with a reducing agent,
producing the metal. The biggest problem would be the reducing agent. We'd most likely use charcoal or coke, which are obtained by burning plant matter and coal, respectively, in a space absent of air (e.g., a buried oven). It's a pretty involved process, and I definitely don't want to just ignore it.

Once you get past that, though, the process would go like this: The wolf with earth powers extracts the ore. Meanwhile Lyta, or another wolf with fire powers, makes coke or charcoal. Then that is fired with the ore, producing metal. Possibly the earth wolf is still be able to manipulate the metal, seeing as it's still earth (Toph is such a badass), and he/she can use her powers to fit it to the wolf it's being made for. If not, there are surely other ways.

Thoughts?

[Accalia]

Maybe a wolf with powers specifically over metal?
In a lot of animes, earth power indicates different things. It's really varied and broad. By 'earth power', some mean powers over earth and soil, some include plants and trees, some earth magics allow you to control rocks and metals and earth and soil and plants and trees, some earth magicians can cause earthquakes and make golems out of rock... I've never really liked 'earth' as a power, because it's so vague, and different people let it include different things, so it's easy to god-mode. I was in an RP once where an RPer had a wolf with stone powers, and kept making them be able to do really improbable things, like spy on goings-on on another side of a mountain by 'listening through the stone using her stone powers', or causing volcanic eruptions because 'lava is just molten rock!'.
I would throw my vote on the side of having a separate wolf with control of metals, and not letting earth-power wolves control metal... they're powerful enough.

I think it would be really interesting giving the ACA control of the 'armoury'. And then maybe give other packs their own little unique things, too... the Underworld can give people immortality, the ACA can make armour, another pack could have loads and loads of prey, another pack could discover a deposit of magical metal...

We can make a little trade market just like real life - some packs having more resources, other packs having knowledge on how to make things out of stuff, other packs having members with unusual or useful powers, other packs being the only ones with access to a certain mineral deposit or being the only ones where a Magical Plague-Curing Plant grows...

Then we get interesting trade plots - oh, I don't know, maybe Pack 1 needs armour to be safe from the marauding beasts, but Pack 2 is the only pack with armour. Pack 1 has a load of resources - prey - but Pack 2 is happy enough, and doesn't want any more prey, so Pack 1 trades with Pack 3, who are short on prey, in return for Pack 3 to teach Pack 1 their secret awesome fighting technique, and then Pack 1 trades the knowledge of the technique to Pack 2 in return for the armour...

I've been doing too much geography homework, haven't I? Sorry. XD

[Forte]

This is a great idea too! Awesome. I'm really excited! :DDD

[Accalia]

Hmm. We should devise some kind of size/weight limit ratio... Small wolves would be able to carry less armour than heavy wolves, and wolves wouldn't be able to fly with it...

Oh yes, that's another point. Wolves shouldn't be able to fly in heavy armour, wings or no wings. A wolf flying - wings or not - is improbable, because they're big and bulky and heavy, but it's a fantasy site, so it's fine. Armour might be going a bit far... they'd have to take it off to fly around in.

Little sketch-out/ideas for the trade market...

Aurora Caeli Alliance - armour? Not sure I like that. Maybe if they work out what Ae'chi can do... I have a secret awesome plot in my head for that... <3
Anirniq - Not the foggiest.... who runs Anirniq? Myst?
Cascadia - some form of magic healing herb/technique? Forte, this is your one...
Hazriel - Kailolu's call. It would have to be along the lines of prey or resources because they don't have magic.
Shifting Shadows - Myst's call. I'm thinking 'long the lines of tons of fish/prey/plants and stuff since they live in the forest with the lake full of fish.
Solis - erm no idea. Val's call. I have no idea what you'd find in a desert that you wouldn't be able to get hold of elsewhere... magical cactus juice?
The underworld - do we include the afterlife in our trade market? If so, it's Naium's call, but the most obvious one is the power to give people immortality...

What do people think?

[KaiNaium]

Immortality would be expensive! Haha! Immortality apart from the Underworld can be provided by a golden soul. One receives conditional immortality by the removal of one's soul. But, the price is the bondage to the holder of the wolf's soul. (Also known as the current ruler of the Underworld) Golden souls may be provided, but it requires a mass amount of energy and sorcery on the sorcerer-wolf's part. Anyway, either Narra or Shairron (or both) would provide spirit guides during their reign, so that the lost soul of the Underrealm may redeem themselves and gain their rightful, full place in the Underworld Pack. Otherwise, they are basically slaves to them. So, yeah!

Oh, right, the other thing I wanted to talk about! If all these packs have some sort of thing that they can sell or barter to other packs, then would we need some sort of merchant-wolf to travel between packs and barter for food, medicine, armour, etc etc blah blah blah? We could have a council of merchants for each pack, each with a merchant headquarters to make trading easy, fast, and simple. Although, the merchants will also have to be semi-diplomatic to avoid treading on any tails and will need to have basic fighting and survival skills. Therefore, these merchants, I should think, would be decently skilled and high members of the pack. This is, of course, should we choose to form this mythical "merchant council."

[Accalia]

As for the merchant council... I don't know about other packs, but if it did happen, in the ACA, trading would be the Aezel's job, as are all diplomatic relations with other packs.
Ferrying goods from pack to pack sounds like a loner's role. I mean, there's a reason wolves form packs - that's the way they're built to survive. Animals have roles, little niches in evolution that allow them to survive. Cheetahs can run fast and hunt down prey, mice are small and can hide from predators, humans can use tools, wolves can work together. If a wolf wasn't going to work together with others, it would be a seriously hard life. So it's entirely possible that the loners do things like trading prey/plants/goods with packs, just to help support themselves. And then maybe trading that stuff with other packs. Since loners seem generally to be wanderers anyway, it makes sense that they might do that.

Hmmm. I want a character who's an immortal fire-breathing duck.
Completely unrelated comment <3

[KaiNaium]

Loners? Hmm... interesting. Some Loners would be interested in the profit involved, I'm sure. Then this would mean that the wolf would pay for the merchandise himself, carry it to wherever it is he's selling it, and sell it for a higher price than bought? It seems like a risky trade, for if you didn't sell everything you bought you may not make the profit or may actually lose money, but also seems high in reward. Alright, you've convinced me, this is a great idea!

And another thought just occured to me. I'm sorry, but I have to bring it up: a Black Market. I don't know what'd be sold there, but with all this talk of sales and profit it just makes me think of corruption which, of course, leads to thoughts of a Black Market. Problem is, I'm not sure what would be illegal or immoral for wolves to sell... Souls? Curses? Buncha dark stuff I'm sure.

Oh, and yes, Toph is a massive badass. And Zuko is sexy.

[Accalia]

Heheh. Strangest idea... Wolf packs with missiles! Nuclear proliferation! LOL. No, Aca, don't start getting ideas...
I do like that idea... dark magics. mwahahahaha....

[Dogsrock]

This is a cool idea! Maybe there could also be armour made out of leather as well? Leather would be easier for the wolves to find and create, and while it would not provide as much protection as metal, it would be lighter and could be used more easily by flying wolves. Leather could also be used to make straps to hold some of the metal armour in place (like breastplates).

For the trade, I've noticed that a lot of the packs have 'messenger' rankings. Maybe these wolves would be good for relaying goods between the packs as well as messages? They could also work in conjunction with the diplomatic ranks in terms of trade, if such ranks exist within a certain pack. Loners could be more like the Black Market, especially when the relations between two packs are poor. For example, using Pack 1 and Pack 2 as mentioned earlier, if Pack 1 and Pack 2 recently had a pack war then Pack 1 could obtain armour through the loners.

(Sorry if I'm butting in, I know I just joined here)

[Forte]

Don't worry about it Dogsrock, you're very welcome here!

I'm gonna weigh in on everything that's been said since my last reply:

strength/weight ratio: This seems kind of unnecessary. I think we're all here mature writers and are unlikely to take advantage of this loophole. Besides, armor made for smaller wolves will naturally be smaller and weigh less. However, I know there are some very small characters out there, and I recall that one has hollow bones like a bird, so I agree that characters like that should not be allowed to wear armor. Maybe instead of a ratio, which would require members to add accurate weight and size measurements (I know that not everyone knows enough about wolves to be able to make these realistic) to the profile, the staff or the players of the leaders of the ACA could cast votes on each wolf who wants armor.

Cascadia'sunique resource: A special herb is a great idea, Accalia! Maybe it could make wolves stronger or smarter, which would give Cascadia's allies an edge in battle; or it could do something magical...take away a wolf's magic temporarily? make it stronger? give a non-magic wolf powers? change a wolf's magic? Some of those might make for good sneaky, assassination-type plots. I also thought that seafood would make a good luxury export if it could be kept from spoiling, which would be tough without, again, magic. Easier magic this time, though, I think: a wolf with ice powers could freeze it to preserve it on the road.

the Underworld in the trade market: I definitely think the Underworld should be included, but immortality seems like it would cost...a lot. And it would likely benefit only an individual wolf, unlike the other goods mentioned that could be shared. Is there anything else anyone can think of that could be produced by the Underworld?

merchants: Perhaps there could be a couple of separate merchant packs that don't have territories but instead travel between other packs, carrying the goods. They would need to be paid, of course; a certain amount of whatever they transported? That seems likely. Probably a few wolves from each regular pack would accompany the merchants to make sure they didn't spirit away their stuff. That could be the messengers'/diplomats'/Aezel's duty.

black market: Hell yes.

Zuko: Very sexy.

missiles: No.

leather armor: the process for making leather is actually more involved than making metal. You have to tan it, and the process, by ancient methods, results in a really terrible smell.

[KaiNaium]

Oni, my aforementioned bird-like, hollow-boned young wolf, won't be wearing any armour. Close combat isn't her style, which I daresay is true for anyone else who's that small and fragile.

As for the cost of immortality: yes, it would cost and extravagant amount. Most likely, the payment for such a 'prize' would be the selling of your soul to a devil which comes with predictable conditions. A golden soul is bought by the selling of your soul to the devil (or some other form of payment I can barely imagine) to give someone else (*ehem ehem* a lover) a golden soul to keep them alive and immortal. Immortality often gives a mortal wolf magical abilities, heightened magical abilities if the wolf already contained magics. Whatever causes a wolf to go to such extremes to keep himself (or someone else for that matter *ehem ehem*) would be pretty extreme.

But, anywho... Other stuff the Underworld could sell... Hmm...

We have a lot of dark stuff in the Underworld. By that I mean, things that grow spawn there naturally and, by their very nature, hurt people. There would be cursed thorns and rock shards... nightshade! Thorns and shards could be used as weapons and fortifications; attachments to shields and armour. The nightshade, if prepared correctly and found newly-spawned, kills any living creature within seconds. Shall we just say, anything of worth found in the Underworld won't be sold in any legitimate market?

As for the leather armour, while it may be difficult, I do think it's a good idea to have smaller, lighter, and cheaper "travel" armour that could be for sale for more everyday use and protection instead of the use in war. I know some loners would appreciate the extra layer. I was going to say Shairron might appreciate it, but that truth is he probably wouldn't. He frown on the use of mortal metals to protect his immortal being.

[Dogsrock]

I looked up the tanning process for leather. While I'll admit it would probably take a very inventive wolf to come up with it (or one that just likes to play with their food), making leather doesn't require any materials the wolves don't have access to (prey animal, animal brains, water and sharp claws) and although magic could possibly speed the process up it shouldn't be necessary to create the leather. Considering that wolves deal with gory prey all the time, I don't feel like the gross factor would bother them too much, and if the smell got too bad the tanning could be carried out away from the densite.

Regardless of whether there is leather armour or not, there still needs to be a way to secure the metal armour like breastplates and gauntlets on the wolves. Metal chains could be used, but they would probably use up a lot of metal, and if the chains ever broke they would be expensive to replace. Animal tendons are used to tie smaller objects like arrowheads, but I don't know if they would be strong enough to support armour... Same goes for woven grass and reeds. I think string or rope would probably be an overly complicated process for the wolves to manufacture... Although leather might be costly, it wouldn't cost as much as metal, and it is very sturdy.

In terms of armour manufacturing, I looked up the metal deposits in North America (I have nothing to do right now ). Copper (if it were used) is mostly found along the Western coast, mostly in the desert and montane forest regions. Iron is mostly found in the Great Lakes region, around the intersection of the steppe, broadleaf forest and taiga regions. There is also a little bit of iron on the far east coast of Canada, in the taiga.I don't know if anyone cares that much or not, but those are the areas where realistically it is more likely to find metal to build armour with. As to steel deposits, if there are any, I know nothing.

[Forte]

Wow, great research, thank you! You make a very convincing argument, and I can see that leather will probably be necessary to make metal armor, too, so I'm going to approve leather and leather armor as well as iron armor (no other metals at the moment, I'm still researching steel and copper).

Also, I like all of KaiNaium's ideas for the Underworld's goods (except she mentioned shields, which I doubt I'll ever approve since wolves have no way to hold them, except maybe wolves with telekinesis...), and I agree that everything from there should be sold only on the black market.

[Accalia]

Five times now I've tried to post here and been defeated by my parents walking in. D:

Anyway... should somebody start a thread, where characters think up the idea of armour, try and work out how to make some, make a first batch, and whatever?

Also, why do they have to struggle with making metal/leather?
There are some areas where magic exceeds science. They could make stone armour - with science, you'd have to use insane temperatures to melt stone into a mould, but you could make it easily if you had stone-magic. Even a thin plate of stone would be quite strong, although any thicker than a centimetre and you'd have to be seriously strong to wear full plate armour.
Or a really thick tree bark, if you have plant powers, should be easy to shape. Consider that lions have 'neck armour', and that's only thick fur, but it still does its job pretty effectively. Even something like a cushion can stop an arrow, which just proves that you don't need that great armour, providing the enemy hasn't got that great weapons. Of course, if the wolves had guns, it'd be a different matter.

[Forte]

The thing about making metal and leather armor is, the material isn't ready for molding straight out of the ground. You're right about stone armor being easily made with the proper magic, but with leather and metal, the wolves don't know it's even there. Humans needed to discover it, probably by accident or through experimentation.

Tree bark armor, now that's an awesome idea. I might want some for one of my characters.

I don't think we should have an IC thread for this stuff if it's going to be basically the same conversation over again, but maybe a thread where some wolves in the ACA were experimenting with it would be fun.

[Accalia]

Yes, an experiment thread would be good. It would just seem a bit weird to me, if wolves suddenly started walking around wearing armour, and there'd been no IC discovery/making/explanation. We don't have to do one if nobody else would want to post in it, though, XD